A conversation on nihilism (if that is at all possible)

Max Weber
Sign Carriers
1938
Oil on canvas, 13-1/4 x 17-1/8 inches
© 2008 Estate of Max Weber
Courtesy of Gerald Peters Gallery

On my post Finding Excellence, there is a very good discussion going on, worth reposting in the main body of the website (see below). The nihilistic Wayne could not add to the arguments Hannon provided about the societal and cultural role of art. Like all good destructive forces, he disappeared once he realized that someone (some people) will fight his views to the end.

That is my point about reclaiming beauty. Unless we make a stand, and a forceful one, all kinds of nihilistic elements seep in (have seeped in) our society.

When we find them, we have to confront them with the force and energy with which they confront us. Often, though not always, this will cause them to disappear. But, they can always return, and other newer ones can emerge. We have to fight, and remain vigilant. That is how societies have always survived.

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A conversation on nihilism (if that is at all possible):

Anonymous (who later identifies himself as Wayne):

You were right. It [my post on excellence] ended up being about you.

Heaven forbid artists should use art for self-expression. Heaven forbid artists such as Van Gogh or Munch should use art to express their own inner turmoil or confusion ... or madness. It should be used for the collective good instead, to uphold tradition and conservatism ... like Soviet art maybe.

By the way, I believe you use this blog for self-expression.

Hannon:

If art is venerated as self-expression then what does it say about us collectively?

Art of course includes expressions of anxiety, depression and anger. These are legitimate underpinnings for art. But art is not purely a medium of self-expression. It is also communal and it cuts across time and space. It is transcendent. If that time and space is mainly filled with art that expresses self-loathing and nihilistic themes, as we find in much of the modern art scene, then the breadth and meaning of art as it has appeared through the centuries has been forsaken. Art then becomes merely a narcissistic self-therapy.

Wayne:

Art begins with self-expression. It is the only place from which art can come. It is the product of the singular imagination in search of a means of expressing how it sees both its inner and outer worlds. Art becomes transcendent when the understanding of those worlds is shared by others, or when others bring their own interpretations to the expression and are moved by it. All good art is nihilistic in the sense that it follows its own rules of expression without regard to social or cultural ideals. It can express joy and beauty as equally as sorrow and despair and that joy (or sorrow) becomes communal as the viewer begins to see the world through the eyes of the artist.

I signed anonymous last time, but the name is Wayne.

Hannon:

You say that "All good art is nihilistic in the sense that it follows its own rules of expression without regard to social or cultural ideals." I don't know what you consider to be "good art" but there are countless examples of art widely regarded as superior that *express* social or cultural ideals rather than going against them. (By superior I mean they are significant to the public as well as scholars and museums). Artistic innovation does not equate to nihilism, or even rebellion.

Wayne

When I say nihilistic what I mean is that the goal is not to uphold cultural or social ideals, but to express the artist's singular view of those ideals, or otherwise. Look at something like Warhol's soup can, which you would have to agree is, as you say, significant to the public as well as scholars and museums. It magnified the mundane into art and reflected our consumerist society back at us without being a paean to that society. It contains irony as well as an appreciation of an aspect of 20th century culture.

Impressionism was the "modern art" of its time, reviled by traditionalists because it didn't adhere to the rules of representation, yet it gave us a whole new way of seeing the world and was an inspiration. They painted what they saw in their mind's eye, not what the cultural artistic ideals demanded. I agree there are examples of good art that express social or cultural ideals, but it has to begin with the artist and his particular vision, not the imposition of the ideal (IMO). But it's highly subjective isn't it? One man's Mona Lisa is another man's soup can.

Hannon:

I agree that the imposition of ideals is a non-starter for artistic expression. Yet there are always pressures upon artists to move in certain directions, as demonstrated by art patronage during the Renaissance or the politics of private galleries. Artists must support themselves somehow and can never be entirely free from outside influences, including cultural ones. The modern problem, in my view, is that art in the West continues to not only trend away from ideals of truth, beauty and transcendence, but to venerate the destruction of these notions altogether. Instead of transporting us to higher modes of thinking the individual artists too often drag us through the muck of human experience as though reminding us of our dark and fragile selves is a service we are constantly in need of.

Employing relativism to say that the Mona Lisa is not better (or worse) than the soup can provides a distillation of the thinking that leads to nihilistic attitudes about art. This may be ok for critics and aficionados but for a society it is disastrous. It is no different than saying that a crime-ridden ghetto is just as good as a community of law-abiding, taxpaying citizens. Both are rich in expression and any given person might choose one over the other, but they are two different realms that will never be in harmony with each other.

Here are my posts on Andy Warhol, including his "can of soup."
- Warhol's Icons
- Warhol's Universe
- Chicken Soup
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Posted By: Kidist P. Asrat